Path: news.net.uni-c.dk!newsfeeds.net.uni-c.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: Jerry Avins Newsgroups: comp.ai.neural-nets,comp.lang.apl,comp.lang.awk,comp.lang.beta,comp.lang.cobol,comp.lang.dylan,comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Einstein's Riddle Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:10:42 -0500 Organization: The Hectic Eclectic Lines: 49 Message-ID: <3AAE7EC2.E11AFC8D@ieee.org> References: <3AACB567.A59B8497@Azonic.co.nz> <3AACE6CF.7F05484D@ieee.org> <0W8r6.178$fo5.14165@news.get2net.dk> <3AAD60F3.120F284A@ieee.org> <3AAE371A.2F9F596F@brazee.net> Reply-To: jya@ieee.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYCculCRoBiJGGfKnaHjjF3sutHZc5HyK0arwPHb084m2dj35tBd44F X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2001 20:10:56 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: news.net.uni-c.dk comp.ai.neural-nets:67546 comp.lang.apl:29377 comp.lang.awk:17140 comp.lang.beta:12746 comp.lang.cobol:102586 comp.lang.dylan:24165 comp.lang.forth:78547 Howard Brazee wrote: > > Jerry Avins wrote: > > > That would require bringing to bear a great deal of artificial > > intelligence. Ninety-nine percent of the world, me included, doesn't > > know how to do that. Indeed, the first programmer (who will likely also > > be an engineer) who creates a sound embodiment of artificial stupidity > > will probably be awarded a Nobel Prize. ö¿ö > > I've seen plenty of artificial stupidity already. You have better vision and better sources than I. All I've seen is programmer stupidity, much of it my own, and all of it real. When we can program a machine to be as stupid and as effective in the real world as a housefly or an earthworm, that will be the artificial-stupidity precursor to AI. Expert systems and fuzzy logic may be useful tools for the purpose, but so is assembly language. None of those embody intelligence. (Or so it says here!) > > But the trouble with defining whether or not we have AI is that there is no solid > arrival point. We can judge whether a computer appears to act like a person, but > intelligence can be many different things without that. It is basically problem > solving. Lots of problems can be solved via computers, lots cannot. At what level > do we say we have the first AI? I suppose we have had it for a long time. And we > are gradually incrementing the intelligence level to new levels. > > Some people were upset when a computer beat the World Chess champion. But computers > could long beat 99% of the population. And bicycles could long beat 100% of the > population. Just because intelligence is specialized doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's the same way with animal intelligence. People have long maintained that what sets humans apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is ____. (Pick one or insert your own: tool making; verbal communication; self consciousness; tool use; altruism; symbolic reasoning.) As soon as an instance of _____ is demonstrated in animals, it is removed from the list, sometimes replaced by another. I have a second-hand report of an encounter with a large bear that stood 7 feet tall on his hind legs. He had been hanging around watching my friend's friend build a log cabin, but didn't give the impression of becoming a threat. On coming to watch one day, the bear picked up a log that would have been too heavy for one man, stood, and walked into the woods with it balanced on his shoulder. It seemed a case of "See! I can do it too!" I can't imagine what the bear was actually thinking, but he was surely thinking something. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. -----------------------------------------------------------------------